http://www.sundayherald.com/43167



"I do well enough already and I made this film because I want the world, to change. The more people who see it the better, so I’m happy this is happening."

(I like the man already)

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* Take a read, alot of the things he expresses in his film many of us are aware of (hopefully). If not? Well... If you have not seen it & are not aware of the things he exposes thru the genre of film? Then, DO see it... it just might make you 'rethink' alot of things going on around you, especially United States Citizenry!

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I am personally TOTALLY opposed to what is going on over there in IRAQ for several reasons:

1.) I have a younger brother who is a Second Lt. in the U.S. Army who goes over there risking his life, & for what? Halliburton & Cheney ripping us off some more?? Who sent him here??? A guy who was AWOL in the service mind you, Mr. Bush. Never saw combat himself, but has the unmitigated GALL to send others to die possibly????

2.) The GIGANTIC debt Mr. George W. Bush & cronies has put upon us, which YOU AND I have to pay for (totally burning the surplus Mr. Clinton had built up as well, we were actually ahead before this republican got into office, amazing)... ALL for Weapons of Mass Destruction that were NEVER found!

3.) I did not see Saddam Hussein drive any jets into our buildings, but instead it was Osama Bin Laden... Now, I ask you:

Why attack Hussein then? Heh, if they spent that much money on missiles to flatten the mountains Bin Laden hides in rather than "rebuilding IRAQ", we'd have had him either dead or captured by now!

I don't know about you, but if I get into a fight, especially one I did not start? I beat the heck outta the guy if I can, but I don't take him to the hospital afterwards & stitch him up myself afterwards... It's a fight, not a ballgame! Especially if he starts up with me! He had it coming. Problem is? How on earth can you say it was Hussein??

He did not attack the U.S. inside of its own borders, Bin Laden did! Now, again, I dunno about you, but if a guy pops me in the nose, I don't hit the guy standing next to him or who knows him personally... I hit the one that hit me!

4.) It appears to me @ least, NOT to steal IRAQ's oil, but instead to build up the republican party "top men's" & "CORPORATE AMERICA's" bank accounts instead by 'rebuilding IRAQ' under the mask of "freedom", b.s.! All the while, again, you & I as regular folks pay it off... how you supposed to pay off a debt, if you don't have a good paying job?

All the while guys like my bro & DosFreak here go over there risking their lives for it & get paid fractions of pennies on the dollars the companies doing it are making (WHICH YOU AND I PAY FOR MIND YOU)...

I don't see Bush or Cheney over there do you? Oh, of course not! I wonder how many wars would be fought, & how many folks would die, if the President & his crew had to go overseas & fight on the front lines?

4.) Jobs fading from the U.S., but spending tons on a war where our brothers & sons get killed for it & that spending does NOT come free... it drives costs of everything up due to debt incurred (which again, ALL taxpayers pay off)!

5.) George W. is NOT doing his job! The main part of which is not defending the "freedom" of others (more like his own by feeding his pals wallets, after all, money IS freedom). Folks here need jobs, GOOD PAYING jobs... not hand-to-mouth/paycheck-to-paycheck jobs!

I know if I don't do parts of my job, I get fired: pretty simple!

6.) Allowing outsourcing jobs to foreign shores is ok? I think not, not w/out penalty! I don't see ANY taxes applied to those that practice this outsourcing stuff either iirc... can you?

Sure, I have nothing against it really IF it's done 'properly' & that while it is done,it takes away jobs from OUR shores internally & our own citizenry.

I say go ahead & do outsourcing if you like, but apply a tarriff/tax to those that do so so it does not rob ALL of our jobs from us here in the states!

(Heh, I mean, well... How are you supposed to have an economy, if no one has disposable income to put out for it to keep its wheels turning? Might as well try to run your car w/out gas in the tank!)

(By the way: Happy 4th of July people!)

APK

P.S.=> Why do I say what I said above? Well, from that SAME article, take a peek @ this type of 'twist-your-arm' tactics by 'the powers that be':

"Opposed by Move America Forward, a conservative group set up to dissuade cinemas from showing the film, Fahrenheit 9/11 has become one of the most controversial productions in Hollywood history. Last month Australian distributors Hopscotch Films claimed to have received e-mails warning that if the company went ahead with its planned release of the movie, it would do so “at our own peril”

(I rest my case! A "conservative group" huh? More like the pirates that are burning the middle-class outta existence group & turning the rest of us into slaves! Must be scaring them a bit, to do something of that nature!)

apk

The biggest win for propaganda was convincing the general public that it didn't exist...

That said, I think it's important people watch this film, as they have been bombarded by the current administration's propaganda.

Originally posted by adamvjackson:

"The biggest win for propaganda was convincing the general public that it didn't exist...

That said, I think it's important people watch this film, as they have been bombarded by the current administration's propaganda.
"

Agreed, & Mr. Moore himself expresses that view, in addition to my own above (almost mirrors).

The biggest one?

Well, the "electoral college" vote beating the popular vote (your & my actual vote towards who will be elected, the one that SHOULD matter!!!). Bush lost that... So, that said, how come he was elected?

The electoral college is, frankly, b.s. & your PC @ home has a 32-bit memory addressing capable power in it... that can count nearly the WORLD population's vote (nevermind just the USA population count) @ 4 billion entries possible. That is just a home PC mind you...



* I love my country, I really do! However, I don't like what I see going on in it under Bush's "CORPORATE AMERICA"! I was ALL for going after Bin Laden... but Hussein? THAT Makes NO damn sense... not at all! Like I said above, if you get punched in the nose by a guy, do you hit his acquaintance? NO! You go after the one that punched you!

Looks like Sean Penn & Susan Sarandon were not off-base & in left-field after all when they publicly & early on in essence stated:

"Why are we doing this?"

APK

P.S.=> Right now, seriously? I can see the rest of the world either:

1.) Laughing @ us all here in the states for being ABUSED by the republican party like this on MANY grounds from day #1 of their attaining office...

or

2.) Feeling extremely sorry for the 'regular folks' here, again being ABUSED by the republican party like this on MANY grounds from day #1 of their attaining office...

(& Either one makes me VERY angry, but can you blame me?)

apk

personally i dont like moore or his films and ill just leave it at that.
but here is a couple of sites i thought might go along with the disscussion.

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/

and another.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/


http://www.hillnews.com/news/062404/moore.aspx

also im not republican or democrat,im registered independent

Originally posted by bit_junkie:

"but here is a couple of sites i thought might go along with the disscussion.

http://www.hillnews.com/news/062404/moore.aspx

also im not republican or democrat,im registered independent"

"Michael Moore may be prevented from advertising his controversial new movie, “Fahrenheit 9/11,” on television or radio after July 30 if the Federal Election Commission (FEC) today accepts the legal advice of its general counsel."

So much for 'free-speech' in the U.S.A., & I thought all of us had that right in ANY genre of communications?

(NOT UNDER BUSH!)

Nope, I said what I said, from what I see myself (and have seen all over this country in the last year while travelling it: Folks losing jobs & more and more businesses closing!

That should be BUSH & CREW's #1 job, getting those back, GOOD jobs so folks CAN have money to spend:

Money = Freedom (& when it's spent? == STRONG ECONOMY)

YOUR personal freedom in large part as a U.S. Citizen should be being defended, instead of being made a minimum wage slave that lives paycheck to paycheck & hand-to-mouth & "defending the freedom of IRAQ" (more like corporate america making freedom by raking in the profits rebuilding IRAQ, @ YOUR expense folks)...

& NOT allowing 'outsourcing', @ least not without tarriff or tax on it to discourage it).

You & I don't do our jobs? We get FIRED: point-blank, while existing under 'corporate america', which is more interested in short-term quarterly profits due to the stock market demands on it, rather than "spending some, to make alot OVER THE LONG TERM"... that philosophy is gone now, & unlike this one? IT WORKED for America's prosperity for centuries!

Now, I don't see BUSH & CREW doing the MOST important thing on their job itinerary - providing GOOD PAYING JOBS that give people disposable income to buy goods & services of ALL kinds (not just put food in your mouth & pay the rent) to the U.S. taxpayer! And, in a strongly oriented SERVICE ECONOMY (another b.s. fiction foisted upon us rather than a manufacturing economy since the early 80's which I knew & often argued with my economics prof.'s in college that it is b.s. & that most folks are NOT white-collar material or want to be either)... you need disposable income to pay for 'fun' services, like seeing movies like this one for example!

Without that extra money, you have NO freedom (money), the country has NO economy (especially what we live in now unfortunately: A SERVICE ECONOMY), and anyone out there can see it, especially since we're all living it first-hand! Businesses closing down, less & less GOOD paying jobs... it's grinding to a halt folks, wakeup!

The economy is getting better? B.S.! It's worse than ever, especially for us IT/IS/MIS guys... our jobs are being exported overseas for folks that accept pennies on the dollar (less even) for what those jobs are billed for... & when you bill a company it does not MATTER who does the work & their wage paid out for it, it gets passed onto YOU the consumer in higher costs & STILL gets billed out as if you & I were paid for it (you & I, would spend our extra money HERE in the states, not overseas! Get it?).

No, I know guys that run outsourcing deals personally... & one told me himself (I swear to GOD on this):

"I am a good crook!"

(Verbatim & for a LARGE company that covers N.Y. City, New Jersey, & Long Island areas... he hits this company for hundreds per hour, & pays out pennies per hour. ALL outsourced, no tax or tarrif on him either. That's GOTTA stop, or folks here will not have good paying jobs to buy goods & services here... destroying "economy" & its engines... basic economics 101 folks!)



Sending your brothers & sons off to die for Haliburton? B.S. again... the WORST of it!

APK

P.S.=> I can look ALL day @ sites that say "Bush is OK", but I have seen what I see with my own eyes & state it above from having been ALL OVER this nation in 2003-2004 having to travel for work (Like Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens said: Travel IS the best education. Great leaders like Peter the Great who change Russia for the better practiced it to learn to build ships in England for example, to learn how things were elsewhere for the GOOD and the BAD)

I did not like what I saw in my travels to survive guys, seriously, & especially in OUR field of endeavour/livelyhood... you can see it too! I thought it was isolated to where I live normally only... & it's NOT, not by a longshot!

And, no amount of "counter-rhetoric" can change what I have seen with my OWN 2 eyes... apk

i agree with you on the outsourcing,im afraid that when i get out of school im going to have to move to india just to get a job.

i posted the links to just play a little "devil's advocate" so to speak.
im not happy with bush as a whole and i voted for him.
i also dont think the economy is as bad as all that either,my fiance,who works for a large development company just got a bonus,and a friend of mine that works for a web hosting company is doing excellent as well,hell even my ex-wife just got a raise lol.
to play D.A again heres one more site:

http://www.bea.doc.gov/

and i also agree on the electoral college complete bull****,we vote,and popular vote should win.

Originally posted by bit_junkie:

"i agree with you on the outsourcing,im afraid that when i get out of school im going to have to move to india just to get a job."

Good luck man... I have been @ this field for coming up on, overall with some breaks in it, 12++ years in this field, & am having trouble!

Ever take a look @ some of the postings? They want UNBELIEVABLE requirements #1, you'd need 25++ years of experience for them! Many are 'mysteriously filled' by folks with less experience (pals of those putting the jobs up, protecting their own (I can see this, human nature), & just satisfying the law by posting the job for all comers) as well even BEFORE you get to apply for them...

Again: GOOD luck man! You & I (& all of us here in this field) are being NUKED by outsourcing... in effect? Your future is being taken from you as a tax paying citizen!

Think the outsourced dollars get spent HERE in the states: Answer - NO! That's ANOTHER point to consider as well! It's corporate american criminals (yes, that's right) charging companies the SAME if not more, & paying out next to nil in terms of %'s, & you and I have to pay off Georgie's war?? A war that found NO "WMD"'s, no real connection with BinLaden & Hussein, but surely shows Haliburton & Cheney RIP-OFF's of us!

Yup, you ARE BEING ROBBED OF A JOB, OPPORTUNITY, and as time passes? Experience & references (this can work against you if you wait TOO long between jobs mind you)! Your future is being stolen man... hopes, dreams, goals, the whole 9 yards.

Originally posted by bit_junkie:

"i posted the links to just play a little "devil's advocate" so to speak."

That's alright, both sides of any argument should always be aired... it's just that like in any argument, you have to consider the source: Myself? I'm what I would like to consider 'middle-america/middle-class (lower actually)"... we're the ones that fight the wars along with the poverty stricken, & we ARE the ones that foot the tax bill burdens in terms of larger percentages than any other income bracket!

We don't have jobs though? How are we going to foot this ENORMOUS bill for rebuilding IRAQ?? We SHOULD be rebuilding our economy, defending OUR freedom (which is in real essence, disposable income, especially in a SERVICE ECONOMY. Without extra cash above & beyond rent + food? How are you supposed to keep an economy running?? Mr. Greenspan, I need your help here, because it seems PRETTY SIMPLE to me how to fix it: Give U.S. Folks GOOD paying jobs to buy those services in the service-economy you've helped create!).

What does American Industry/Corporate America do instead? Cut jobs out, downsize, increase the load on those that have jobs still in terms of hours worked + even lessen (many folks too paycuts just to have jobs) payrates... all the while, dumping jobs, & more and more businesses fail, this increases the taxload on those with property etc. when businesses pull out of towns you know, by decreasing the corporate taxbase in any area you put the burden on the residents more! Those same residents, many of whom lose jobs when places close, are then without means & helpless (losing their hopes & dreams, while those in business give themselves fat raises - this is NO joke, I saw it happen here where I live: Hundreds of county workers laid off... what do the big-wigs in county gov't. then turn around & do? Give themselves $10,000 per-year raises... wtf?)

Originally posted by bit_junkie:

"im not happy with bush as a whole and i voted for him."

I didn't, I knew who he represented: Corporate America @ its worst! See this movie, & you'll understand what I mean! Little George & BIG George with his CIA ties using information that he STILL gets from the CIA mind you, as literally "insider information" for businesses he is part of to this VERY DAY!

You & I get info. like that & use it for business? We get nailed like anyone would for insider information act violations...

Think I am kidding? See this film!

Little George ran many businesses into the ground... so, I ask you, how on earth can he be counted on to run a nation?

Originally posted by bit_junkie:

"i also dont think the economy is as bad as all that either,my fiance,who works for a large development company just got a bonus,and a friend of mine that works for a web hosting company is doing excellent as well,hell even my ex-wife just got a raise lol."

They've gotta be exceptions to the rule! Can I ask a question? Are they also working ALOT more hours & given alot more responsibility/job duties to assume than they had before? I bet they have & way more than was commesurate w/ their initial title there had initially.

Originally posted by bit_junkie:

"and i also agree on the electoral college complete bull****,we vote,and popular vote should win."

Absolutely: Thing is though, if you have your "Boys" on the inside running the 'electoral college', it's easy to take control of the masses & FOOL them + that is ALOT less folks to 'bribe/coerce/threaten' to put the vote YOUR way... rather than what folks actually want!

Ever watch a 'power-clique' @ work on a job? Does not take a genius to see that one MAIN guy hires nothing but his personal friends around him & they protect each other like rabid dogs do... & rip off the company blind!

Yes: I've seen it first hand, been a victim of it once in fact!

(I got let go after co-writing a million line VB system that was multitier, over a 1.5 year period, when a guy with a 6 month broken Flash project (give me a break, cake walk work) was STILL broken & he kept his job!

I lost mine after completing this company's LARGEST system that ran multicampus thru Oracle 2.6 on Solaris over Windows 2000 & Terminal Services using VB to Oracle middleware & ran DAMN near everything for them from sales, inventory, shopfloor, contact mgt. you-name-it (a CRM & ERP + more basically)!

A project, that to this day 5++ years later, is bulletproof & solid AND completed 3 concurrent projects while doing that one, ALL working! The guy that kept his job?? Best pals with the boss I mention above: They all got fired eventually, but kept their jobs even with failed projects, no ROI on investment, & generally snowing the owner... explain that!

I will, it's called CLIQUE-POWER! What do you think the Bush's use?)

(Is that going on? I would NOT doubt it after seeing the fiasco & put up job that Jeb Bush (governor of Florida mind you & relative to little George) I would NOT doubt had 'something' to do with... like cancelling out 50,000 Black folks' votes (iirc, that was the number involved, a large part being black americans, denied the right to vote: Sure, some may have been felons, but ALL of them? I don't think even felons should have their right to vote removed... why else live in that country then??)).

I wonder if Neil Bush (George W's brother, & savings & load debacle MAIN player mind you) can still vote & if his vote was counted? Wanna bet it was??



APK

P.S.=> I see the entire BUSH family (& as much as I DISLIKE putting down my president (who should NOT be due to him losing the popular vote)) I have to with facts as best I know them!

The BUSH family? A bunch of DIRTY 'clique players' who do themselves & their pals right all the while gambling this country down the tubes man... well, not "Corporate America" mind you, just us little guys! You know, the middleclass & poor that all the while, fight their wars for them! You know that only 1 Senator/Governor has a kid in the armed services? It IS some ludicrous figure like that...

You may not have seen what I did in YOUR area, but I have here & elsewhere all over the nation while travelling it to just work - not so much major metros, but small town America & there is ALOT more of that than major metropolitan area in the USA... it's being destroyed right along with the middle class (now being turned into minimum wage slaves pretty much & STILL shouldering the greatest % of tax bills due to income bracket % tax sliding)! apk

With Haliburton: It was in Cheney's contract that they'd pay him even after he left the company. Why? Well he pulled the company out of a downward spiral. They are more than happy to pay him even after he left because he saved the company.

You seem to forget about Al Gore's side of things where they were trying to make our armed forces overseas votes not count, and how it was shown that people were altering the ballots to favor Gore.

I think GWB isn't all that great. If it wasn't for 9/11 he'd have a pretty dull presidency and nothing really defining. I don't really care for Bush, and I'm even less thrilled about Kerry. In fact, I'm not voting for either one, since neither seem to remember this little document we know as the Constitution.

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"With Haliburton: It was in Cheney's contract that they'd pay him even after he left the company. Why? Well he pulled the company out of a downward spiral. They are more than happy to pay him even after he left because he saved the company."

Correct me if I am wrong: I seem to recall that when Jimmy Carter, who had businesses in Georgia, had to give up ties to those when he assumed the presidency WAY back in the 70's. I recall this about his having a peanut farm or something like that in which he had to give up income from it & his title in it as well.

(I guess this does not hold true for politicians @ the federal level today, especially those in the BUSH administration?)

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"You seem to forget about Al Gore's side of things where they were trying to make our armed forces overseas votes not count, and how it was shown that people were altering the ballots to favor Gore."

Which people? Absentee ballots like armed forces guys?? They have a right to cast votes don't they, as well as folks travelling overseas correct??

I know one thing: I see how the election, based on electoral college b.s. (which IS b.s., the popular vote WON for Al Gore & NOT Bush), played out... folks are sick of it & aware of it now! It's antiquated & WRONG!

It's funny how it played out RIGHT DOWN to the state where Mr. Bush's relative is the governor too... no, I'm not stupid, & I wager most folks aren't either.

No one would complain if this guy would just do the MOST IMPORTANT thing on his job itinerary: Fix the economy, get GOOD jobs here again.

Outsourcing, which SHOULD concern anyone reading this forum, is the #1 offender out there now - it's stealing jobs from guys like yourself, & myself, & really ANYONE involved in the world of IT/IS/MIS (computers) as well as other service oriented sections of the economy! I don't see it being discouraged via tax or tarrif either. The monies that get paid out on it above all, does NOT get spent here... this especially hurts us here in the U.S.A. without question & especially in a service oriented economy!

Listen man, I am FAR from the smartest guy out there, believe me... but I can see what I see, & saw it all over this nation the last year now in businesses closing, folks losing good jobs (and thus what they worked for their whole lives in homes, goals, & what-not). It's gotta stop!

Enron & Haliburton deals keep happening too... when your leaders & what-not do this @ top levels, it takes the wind outta your sails & sags your spirit man.

Attitude reflects leadership!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"I think GWB isn't all that great. If it wasn't for 9/11 he'd have a pretty dull presidency and nothing really defining."

On the contrary man: W/out 9/11 putting all our attention on a war, in which NO "Weapons of Mass Destruction" were found @ all mind you, & no DIRECT ties to Osama Bin Laden + Saddam Hussein were really found (other than occasionally hanging out if that)... well, you tell me!

Again: It was BinLaden who flew planes into our buildings with his terrorist AlQueda pals... NOT Hussein! So, why attack him?

Maybe to get folks minds off of a failing economy? Maybe to make a boatload of money (as Cheney has) off of the contracts for IRAQ?? Why not hire another company instead, because to me that looks like an EASY way to line your own pockets off of the misfortunes of war (and a war that has NO purpose, no legitimate one @ least other than 'defending the freedom (income) of CORPORATE AMERICA, specifically that which is tied to the pals of the BUSH administration, & demonstrateably so!)).

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"I don't really care for Bush, and I'm even less thrilled about Kerry. In fact, I'm not voting for either one, since neither seem to remember this little document we know as the Constitution."

I care/would vote for WHOEVER can fix this situation in the economy with all the failing businesses, & lack of GOOD paying jobs: In essence, whoever will put a halt to the madness on our OWN shores!

(Once more: W/out good paying jobs out there? Folks are stuck living hand-to-mouth/check-to-check lives, & this ESPECIALLY wounds a 'service economy', because most of the economy is now based upon that rather than a manufacturing oriented one).

In a way, maybe their 'dirty deals' that always seem to land in their OWN laps for the contracts for rebuilding IRAQ etc. is for the best: Folks are being 'woken up' to the corruption & graft man... no way that George W. will be re-elected if you ask me, all the dirt is coming outta the wash for folks to see, & this film exposes a great deal of it (that which is known @ least)!

Blows my mind, because if they spent a FRACTION of the Trillion dollar or so debt they've incurred on finding BinLaden instead of attacking Hussein & bugging the people of IRAQ? They would have levelled the mountains in which BinLaden hides!

On top of that? Now, how is the United States supposed to repay that debt, which causes rising prices in everything (because typically debt failures raise prices on consumers because business has to recoup the loss SOMEHOW, & typically that gets passed onto consumers of all types of which EVERYONE is, a consumer) without good paying jobs?

Specifically good jobs that allows extra money/disposeable income, which is CRUCIAL to a 'service-oriented' economy as we live in now (rather than a primarily tangible goods oriented one as the US used to be) to keep the wheels of this type of economy turning @ the proper rate IF @ all?

APK

P.S.=> But, most of all, regarding this topic: Threatening movie theaters to NOT show this film OR ELSE, is wrong (see above)!

Freedom of speech & expression is one of our 'inalienable rights' you know...

If the facts in it are expressed publicly & it affects Mr. Bush's re-election? Then he should not have pulled the b.s. (neither he nor those around him) in the first place! Saying it is WRONG to advertise it on T.V. for folks to see this film is wrong too? B.S. again... if Bush had nothing to fear from it, nor his pals, why be worried then?

They are also (see above & on news lately too) saying that advertising this film on T.V. stations for folks to see it is affecting George W.'s chance of re-election, & to stop advertising it... why, if he done no wrong?

Nope, something's wrong... in ALOT of places & this film exposes much of it!

Yes, it was also "OK" for the republican party to bring in Mr. Clinton's extra-marital problems (Monica L.) into the mix though, little contradiction here? Doesn't that affect his chances of re-election also?? Not to me it doesn't, God bless him if he is not happy in his marriage, as long as he does his job (which was keep us working & the country running right which he did building up a SURPLUS, not a trillion dollar deficit & killing our young men in wars that have NO real basis mind you). That was his wife & HIS business... not a matter of his job performance! apk
[Edited by Alec§taar on 2004-07-09 13:07:32]

But it was in a Contract for Cheney to recieve the money from Haliburton, even after he left. Can you provide legal basis to show how this was wrong? Why is it that all large corporations are apparently evil because some people are rich?
I'm not sure about Jimmy Carter, but that's his perogative.

About the contract in Iraq: there are other corporations that have the resources to do this, but as I understand it, Haliburton is the only US company with these requirements. With all the griping about Bush sending jobs overseas (a valid argument, although the tax reasons were the same under past presidents), why not give a large company the contract? Would that not keep American jobs, and possibly create new ones.

Clinton: really didn't do much except toward the end (and even Michael Moore has said this in his book, "Stupid White Men"). Looking back, the Lewinsky scandal was pretty weak, and if Clinton had an 'R' after his name, you'd see the Republicans defending him and the Dems attacking.

I tend to disagree with what the president's role is. He, and the rest of the government need to stay out of the economy as much as possible. Less government is better, but I'm not in favor of total . I do not believe it's the government role to mitigate every little bit of the enconomy. If left alone, the economy will repair itself. The recession had started before GWB took office, so he can't be blamed for this. If you want to blame someone, Clinton would be it. But I doubt even he could've done anything about it.

I disagree with Michael Moore. I think he's a left-wing socalist who is an extremist. Having said that, based on the Constitution, he has the right to put this out. I'm not against questioning the government (like why the hell do we have so many programs?), but I still don't have to agree with them. The folks trying to block Farenheit 9/11 probably achieved the opposite effect. It was controversial before it ever came out, and trying to block the release was pretty much free advertisement.

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"But it was in a Contract for Cheney to recieve the money from Haliburton, even after he left. Can you provide legal basis to show how this was wrong? Why is it that all large corporations are apparently evil because some people are rich? "

I know that Carter had to put ANY monies from it either into an "escrow" & he could not use it... the idea being that when you are President, that is your ONLY concern type-of-thinking.

Rich folks aren't evil per-se, it's just that when they are elected to public office & use that office to line their pockets even more? That is NOT right... especially when others before them did not use the office this way (as Jimmy Carter & all elected officials afaik before him & after could not & did not use it this way).

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"
I'm not sure about Jimmy Carter, but that's his perogative."

I think it was forced upon him, as it is on all others who take offices @ that level of gov't. afaik. Things may have changed, but again: What bugs me is seeing the contracts land in the laps of those IN OFFICE already & those of their pals... AND RIPPING US OFF ONTOP OF IT!

I mean, charging the armed forces as they did TWICE over what they should have for barrels of gas as was done is right? You tell me! You & I pay for that you know... & I for one, do NOT like being robbed!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"About the contract in Iraq: there are other corporations that have the resources to do this, but as I understand it, Haliburton is the only US company with these requirements."

I doubt that last statement strongly!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"With all the griping about Bush sending jobs overseas (a valid argument, although the tax reasons were the same under past presidents), why not give a large company the contract? Would that not keep American jobs, and possibly create new ones."

There's alot of things going on now man that are NOT right... outsourcing's KICKING guys like you & I in the teeth in the world of computers, & also in other peripheral services such as customer support!

I don't get it: Don't the guys @ the top realize that when the U.S. Economy sneezes, the world gets the flu pretty much! We consume & buy MORE SERVICES than quite possibly any other body of people!

Show us a dollar, the RIGHT dollar & we will work our tails off to earn it & hold onto the job that does it too, nobody can tell me the U.S. Worker is "lazy/no good" as they did during Reaganomics to bust the unions - this country is a PRODUCTIVITY POWERHOUSE, & has shown this time & again over this century alone!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"Clinton: really didn't do much except toward the end (and even Michael Moore has said this in his book, "Stupid White Men"). Looking back, the Lewinsky scandal was pretty weak, and if Clinton had an 'R' after his name, you'd see the Republicans defending him and the Dems attacking."

Using his personal life was LAME man... I mean, let him without sin cast that first stone! If a man or woman is NOT happy in their marriage, especially sexually? That is THEIR business, & if it does not affect their job performance (LOL, this probably BOOSTED his, hehe, "I cannot wait to get to work today boy!" lol!). That was his wife & his business... the man did a great job, certainly FAR better by many orders of magnitude than BUSH has in terms of building up a surplus of money in our economy (after Reagan had built up a deficit too mind you)... Bush blew ALL of that surplus away, & is leaving us with a Trillion dollar debt now due to this war!

Heh, now? The republicans are saying the CIA is responsible?? B.S. man... b.s.!

I mean, say you & I work together & you tell me "Alex, we have to whack Phillip here, he is up to NO good!" Well, I would say "Bro, you really have to prove that to me, Philipp is really cool & does a GOOD job!" Prove it... & I mean I want to see SOLID evidence!

Others are saying now that the CIA was STRONGLY PRESSURED into showing & saying there was evidence for a war - Let me tell you something from history: During depressions? WARS generally bring you outta them & any excuse is used to start one!

Think WWII & Pearl Harbor was NOT known it was coming? It WAS known & has come out now this is true! BUT, that war brought us outta the 1930's "GREAT DEPRESSION", unlike what is being done to us now by direct comparison!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"I tend to disagree with what the president's role is. He, and the rest of the government need to stay out of the economy as much as possible."

Who is supposed to oversee this then? The president & HIS CREW are elected by us to RUN THE SHOW in this nation man! All aspects of it... ALL!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"Less government is better, but I'm not in favor of total . I do not believe it's the government role to mitigate every little bit of the enconomy. If left alone, the economy will repair itself."

Really? I have been watching it sit here like this for coming up on 5 years now... it's bad man, real bad compared to the boom-time of the 90's under Clinton. First time ever now though, I am worried... I was not the first 4 years, but this year? I am...

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"The recession had started before GWB took office, so he can't be blamed for this. If you want to blame someone, Clinton would be it. But I doubt even he could've done anything about it."

It's partial gov't. & partial big business (and ALOT stock-market!). The stock market is the problem if you ask me, a gigantic gambling table... there are VERY FEW "King Billy's" (My name for Bill Gates) out there now that OWN a company, @ least in controlling stock - Gates is out to build that "better mousetrap" & has publicly said so & delivered - he actually CARES for his creation & is going down in history for it for ALL time no doubt.

Now, on the other hand?

Most companies are board of director run & the control is in the hands of TONS of folks (stockholders) that DEMAND "SHOW ME THE MONEY" NOW, OR YOU ARE FIRED to mgt. They could care less about what this does over the long-haul & its repercussions... hence, you see mgt. resorting to the EASIEST factor to control - payroll & benefits, shave the workforce to show that short-term profit, keep your mgt. job by keeping stockholders happy!

Only problem is? Who has the cash to buy your product/service if folks are outta work?? Catch - 22, huge catch with LONG TERM problems for ALL folks.

Short-term quarterly profits (Star Trek Ferengi policy lol) is overtaking what kept the U.S.A. prosperous for centuries - a philosophy of "spend some, to make ALOT over the long-haul"... keep the sheep fed (in decent jobs) & the serfs will spend their cash internal to our nation buying our products making us rich!

Without good jobs, especially in a SERVICE ORIENTED ECONOMY as we have now? Bro, might as well try to run your car w/out gas! Seriously, it's not THAT diff. of thinking!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"I disagree with Michael Moore. I think he's a left-wing socalist who is an extremist. Having said that, based on the Constitution, he has the right to put this out. I'm not against questioning the government (like why the hell do we have so many programs?), but I still don't have to agree with them. The folks trying to block Farenheit 9/11 probably achieved the opposite effect. It was controversial before it ever came out, and trying to block the release was pretty much free advertisement."

I just see what I see out there now in businesses folding, folks losing jobs, & worse. Something HAS to take place. Taxing/Tarrifing/penalizing outsourcing is ONE THING that has to be done man!

APK

P.S.=> And, you must ALWAYS question, monitor, & censure your gov't. if you can when their wrong & spread the word man... or, because of human nature? They will RUN OVER YOU!

And, you're right: By attempting to BLOCK the advertisement of this film, & threatening Moore & theatre owners that wish to show it backfired... has the country outraged, & it SHOULD be! apk

For gas, it's not just Bush and the executive branch that should be looked upon for the high gas prices. By design, the house and senate must approve all laws, and they have approved tax hikes. Also, if Bush (or any other president) veto's a bill, it can still become law if there are enough votes in Congress.

"I mean, charging the armed forces as they did TWICE over what they should have for barrels of gas as was done is right? You tell me! You & I pay for that you know... & I for one, do NOT like being robbed!"

This was also the army that paid, huge dollar amounts for a screw (like a few hundred) a few years back? They spent the money so that the budget wouldn't be cut back. It's possible they gave the money up so as to make sure they don't get the budget cut. Just a theory.

It sounds like George Tenet told Bush a few lies to go into Iraq. However, the 9/11 commission said that Bush was not resposible for the failure here. Actually, the whole world seem to be asleep at the wheel here, according to the report.

The thing that probably infuriates me the most is how those against Bush seem to be saying that whatever he and his administration does is wrong. But, you know if they did it, it'd be okay. It's politics, and many upper level politicians seem to forget about the people they represent.

While I don't really like what's gone on during the current administration, I do question people that are just bashing Bush for everything. I recall that Kerry had gone so far as to indirectly blame Bush for a drive-by. C'mon. I haven't really seen what Kerry is gonna do for us. It's like "Bush didn't do this...", not "I will do..."

Actually, I agree with almost all of the positions of the Libertarian party, and will be voting that way this year. Sure, we can do better, but I don't feel Kerry is the way to go.

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"For gas, it's not just Bush and the executive branch that should be looked upon for the high gas prices. By design, the house and senate must approve all laws, and they have approved tax hikes. Also, if Bush (or any other president) veto's a bill, it can still become law if there are enough votes in Congress."

Yea, I know that man... I think you misunderstood my analogy above about trying to run your car w/out gas being like trying to have an economy that is healthy w/out folks having jobs that provide disposable (extra, above just rent & food) income to buy services in our type of economy especially (or what I feel it has "devolved" to): A SERVICE ORIENTED ECONOMIC SYSTEM!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"This was also the army that paid, huge dollar amounts for a screw (like a few hundred) a few years back?"

No, this happened during the "war" that is happening NOW man!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"They spent the money so that the budget wouldn't be cut back. It's possible they gave the money up so as to make sure they don't get the budget cut. Just a theory."

That's also one of the problems out there too... although you're off-base on what I stated above, this is another thing that goes on: Burn your budget RIGHT @ YEAR END, to get the same (or more) next year...

Amazes me, because I see some execs out there making payrolls & having expense accounts that could foot HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE's JOB PAYROLL! Entire companies' worth... NOBODY IS WORTH $500 MILLION A YEAR, nobody!

And, yet they downsize & fire folks... folks that if you ask me? Are worth a 1,000 of each of them, especially the "Enron/Tycho" kind!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"It sounds like George Tenet told Bush a few lies to go into Iraq."

Sounds more like BUSH wanted this to happen, to first of all avenge the "hit" that Saddam Hussein put out for his father George sr. (yes, that happened too) & to finish what his Dad did not first of all & secondly to cover up the MESS he has made of our nation economically by having a war (he was hopefully thinking that like other wars in history, specifically WWII, it might pull us outta this depression we are & have been in for 5 years now economically... nope, instead it lines the pockets of his pals like Cheney & crew!)

WHY HIT HUSSEIN though? He did not drive the planes into our buildings?? Makes NO sense! That would be like me punching you, if your acquaintance hit me!!!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"However, the 9/11 commission said that Bush was not resposible for the failure here."

They'd better... if they want to keep their jobs first of all, & secondly because, well, are YOU proud of the mess he has made? I am not... he represents us you know!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"Actually, the whole world seem to be asleep at the wheel here, according to the report."

Heh, the rest of the world is FAR from asleep... the French TOTALLY disagreed with it, & others did as well (note how little support we really had, & during the war mostly the U.S. is carrying the load... wonder why? It was NOT that way against, say, Hitler now, was it?)

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"The thing that probably infuriates me the most is how those against Bush seem to be saying that whatever he and his administration does is wrong."

With what they've done to this nation economically? Absolutely... his WHOLE term has seen nothing but a failing/flopping economy!

Secondly? His "private war" seems to have put us into a TRILLION DOLLAR DEBT, how are we supposed to pay that off thru taxation if we don't have jobs that pay well?

Sending our brothers & sons off to a war, the middle class & poor mostly... when Senators & Congressmen alike only have literally like 1 kid out of hundreds of them in the military over there!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"But, you know if they did it, it'd be okay. It's politics, and many upper level politicians seem to forget about the people they represent."

Sure they do! Why? Well, gosh... they're the "BEST MONEY TRULY CAN BUY!"... ever heard this saying? There is NO such thing as an honest politician!

(Hopefully your generation will invent some! We need 'em...)

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"While I don't really like what's gone on during the current administration, I do question people that are just bashing Bush for everything."

Ever been a captain of an athletic team? You TAKE RESPONSIBILITY... with great power & privelege in a title? That also comes along for the ride man...

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"I recall that Kerry had gone so far as to indirectly blame Bush for a drive-by. C'mon. I haven't really seen what Kerry is gonna do for us. It's like "Bush didn't do this...", not "I will do...""

Well, he's an unknown... but BUSH? Definitely a KNOWN QUANTITY... not a good one in 4 years now...

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"Actually, I agree with almost all of the positions of the Libertarian party, and will be voting that way this year. Sure, we can do better, but I don't feel Kerry is the way to go. "

Bush, judging by his track record & all his henchmen/cohorts tricks as well lining their own pockets, & sending our brothers & sons off to die for it? Is NOT the way for sure...

Look, don't get me wrong: I actually hate saying this stuff, because he represents our nation, but the numbers & facts do the talking bro!

APK

WHile this film may make light of some inmportant questions, it is mostly filled with unsported innuendo and outright partisanship

Why pay $8.50, not including the hotdog and coke I usally buy, when I can watch Kerry ads for free all day long on CNN :P

With that said, It amazes me how so many, what I refer to as party whores, scream how thier side is the best.

I don't agree with the way Bush has handled Iraq, and I may not vote for him, but when the CIA, FBI, RUSSIA, UK, ISREAL all tell him Saddam had WMD and may use or sell them, WTF was he supposed to do?


Hold him to task for how he has handled Iraq, not going to war itself.

After 9/11 you had the 4 top intilligence agencies in the world telling him Saddam was a threat and may be trying to get nukes.

Most other presidents would have done the same.

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"WHile this film may make light of some inmportant questions, it is mostly filled with unsported innuendo and outright partisanship"

Well, the state of our economy is NO fantasy... & neither is the Haliburton scamming that's been documented as fact either! Or, is that NOT true?

This 'war'? A war in which NO "WMD" were found & attacking the acquaintance of the REAL attacker is right?

Top that off with our brothers & sons get sent off to fight it so 'defending freedom' (lining the pockets of Cheney & crew) some more is OK, right? NOT!

Trillion dollar debt is no partisanship, no good paying jobs is not inuendo, & our brothers & sons dying over there while we "rebuild IRAQ" (who mind you, did not drive jet planes into our buildings here) & 'defend the freedom' of Haliburton etc. is NO partisanship either. I see who perpetrates & perpetuates the illusions, & it is the current presidency & their constituents!

Saying the CIA is @ fault is b.s. above all as they are trying to say now & put a "SPIN" on this situation with - That is like saying "The devil made me do it", b.s.!

The fact is: You make decisions, & if you make them half-cocked w/out solid investigation & undeniable proof it is your OWN fault! You have to ask questions, & do your homework before you do things in this life!

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"Why pay $8.50, not including the hotdog and coke I usally buy, when I can watch Kerry ads for free all day long on CNN :P"

Without a good paying job in today's service-economy? Coming up w/ that $8.50 above food & rent is a tough proposition for MANY folks!

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"With that said, It amazes me how so many, what I refer to as party whores, scream how thier side is the best."

No one is "BEST", there is no such thing! However, I can see who is 'worst' for sure, proof is in the actual conditions out there now here in the states!

Under this administration for 4++ years now I don't see alot of good happening & instead of improving? It's worse than ever & especially for us IS/IT/MIS workers, who did great under Clinton for a decade... outsourcing is OK? NO WAY!

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"I don't agree with the way Bush has handled Iraq, and I may not vote for him, but when the CIA, FBI, RUSSIA, UK, ISREAL all tell him Saddam had WMD and may use or sell them, WTF was he supposed to do?"

ASK QUESTIONS, & DEMAND 110% SOLID PROOF... attack & hunt down who attacked you, NOT HIS ACQUAINTANCE!

(Um, that is if you are doing the right thing that is... & not trying to "defend the freedom" (money making rip offs) of "CORPORATE AMERICA" instead of your constituency majority - middle class america & the poor!)

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"Hold him to task for how he has handled Iraq, not going to war itself."

I hold anyone @ the top of a team of any kind responsible... DO YOUR JOB in ALL OF ITS FACETS CORRECTLY, or be gone! You & I get fired for not doing our jobs, right? Heck, under BUSH's administration you get fired for DOING YOUR JOB even due to downsizing & outsourcing!

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"After 9/11 you had the 4 top intilligence agencies in the world telling him Saddam was a threat and may be trying to get nukes. Most other presidents would have done the same."

I don't know about you, but before I sent our brothers & sons off to war? I would have said "You had better have SOLID undisputable proof before I go & send them off to be killed!"

I mean, when you or I do our jobs, & say create programs & reports to show to mgt., we cannot get away with "approximations" in their code... they have to show FACTS based on actual data & data that is STRAIGHT... not repeated & bloated, in our case, which is why for example you use things like SELECT DISTINCT queries in SQL to filter out the bloat repeats, & potential b.s. that could affect the outcomes adversely/falsely!

No, there is WAY too much that says something is wrong: mainly, attacking a nation that did not drive jet planes into our buildings, but another party in BinLaden did... that makes NO sense!

That's like telling us "No, no... the sky is green & the grass is blue", yea right!

APK

Maybe I'm misinterperting you, but it seems like your holding Bush resposible for information given to him that was incorrect. You realize that Bush cannot lead this nation and keep tabs on everyone under him at once? The evedience was at least portrayed in a way that made Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi government under him appear as a very possible threat. If that's the case, the rest of the world was lying to us, and possibly Colin Powell and others presenting the information. Additionally, Congress granted Bush the right to go to war. They too saw the evidence and decided that there was enough reason to start a military operation. Or would you rather Bush not do anything and just wait for another 9/11 to happen? No, we did not have undeniable proof, but what was shown appeared to be a genuine threat.

You seem to want Bush to go out and double check every little bit of info before making a descision. That's impossible, and he's one man. He would be out of office long before he'd finished his research. All the evidence that was given to him and the American people showed Saddam and Iraq as a threat. Do you want Bush to wait until another major city gets hit before doing anything? Is that what you want to wait for?

Bush followed protocol for going to war, and Congress gave him that.

Even Clinton is saying going into Iraq was the right thing to do, although he does disagree on the specifics.

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"Maybe I'm misinterperting you, but it seems like your holding Bush resposible for information given to him that was incorrect."

Not at ALL... I am holding him responsible: As commander-in-chief, it's his JOB to know what's-what & who's up to what. If he cannot do his job, get him OUT! Pretty simple... he's messing up the corporation of the United States.

As far as it being "incorrect"? Well, depends on what you want to interpret for others when you have information given to you. He should have demanded ABSOLUTE proof, not speculation, & checked it twice or more. That is, unless you had "ulterior motives" & when Saddam (who DID NOT DO 9/11, BinLaden did) put a hit out on George Sr.?

Plenty of room for speculation there as to whether George Jr. here had "personal motives/hidden agendas"... I can operate on "POSSIBLE" too, see?

When a doctor tells you "You have cancer, we have to operate", you have the option of listening... or, being intelligent & consulting a 2nd opinion. Why get cut, if you do NOT have to?

It's alot like that. Bush was hired to do a job, oversee the U.S.A. & judging by the results of this economy first & foremost? I am NOT happy, neither are most folks! Majority SHOULD rule, not the majority with the most cash!

I am not interested in excuses either! I'm interested in results!

I'm never given any slack on the job, why should anyone else be? They're getting PAID to do the job, & do it right! ESPECIALLY those in the WhiteHouse.

(And, after all the "put-up jobs" I've seen this administration pull & HORRIFIC results? You expect myself, OR anyone else listening/watching, to believe it?? Come on man...)

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"You realize that Bush cannot lead this nation and keep tabs on everyone under him at once?"

Oh, on the contrary: I would EXACTLY expect that... with great power & title/position comes responsibility!

If he cannot handle the job? Get him out (again). Heck, the guy ran businesses into the ground in Texas, & we gave him the reins of this nation??

(Oh, that's right: He DIDN'T win our actual vote (popular vote) now, did he? Guess WE are off the hook, & the crooks like him are on it trying to setup a "fallguy" in George Tenet of the CIA now... because I do NOT believe anything else!)

If this ship of this nation goes down, & it is in my eyes, I DEMAND the captain & his crew go down with it for their handiwork... as do most folks!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"The evedience was at least portrayed in a way that made Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi government under him appear as a very possible threat."

VERY POSSIBLE, and "IS/ARE" are 2 diff. animals! I cannot operate like that on the job, I have to have answers, & in my/our field? EXACTING ONES!

I don't expect less from others, & MORE IMPORTANTLY not from those running this nation!

Seems the rest of the planet did not back us did they, as they did against Hitler correct? I WONDER WHY... gee!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"If that's the case, the rest of the world was lying to us, and possibly Colin Powell and others presenting the information."

Maybe, maybe not. What I do know is, if someone said to me "Brian Frank is going to shoot you", well, I would listen but I would ask you directly, or ask those that told me "PROVE IT", not just hearsay (I don't operate on that alone, anyone with any sense doesn't) & speculation... especially when it comes to sending off our brothers & sons to war and death.

BUT, then again: It's not BUSH or the Senate OR the House of Rep.s that have their tails on the line either... heck, only 1 of them of 100's has a kid in the military!

I wonder why that is (poor man's fight, rich man's war is why)?

Seems the rest of the planet did not back us did they, as they did against Hitler correct? I WONDER WHY... gee! France especially, they were right all along!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"Additionally, Congress granted Bush the right to go to war. They too saw the evidence and decided that there was enough reason to start a military operation. Or would you rather Bush not do anything and just wait for another 9/11 to happen? No, we did not have undeniable proof, but what was shown appeared to be a genuine threat. "

I would be sure, before I sent our kids off to a war.

NOW, first of all, it was NOT Saddam Hussein that sent jets into our buildings in N.Y. City... it was Osama Bin Laden!

Why are you overlooking this? It's proven... so WHY attack IRAQ?

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"You seem to want Bush to go out and double check every little bit of info before making a descision."

You know, when lives are on the line? YOU BET! Brian... how can you even SAY/THINK that way?? I hope children you have one day never have to deal with going off to fight some war in which no proof was found for it, & those that did the attacking (binladen) are let off scot-free... You think about that!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"That's impossible, and he's one man. He would be out of office long before he'd finished his research."

He cannot handle the job (judging by this fiasco & also by his track record in the military (apparently, he was AWOL, but the records have mysteriously been 'burned' in a fire... b.s., big George covering his boy's tail, YET AGAIN... nobody is that stupid man, when you see something that "smells like $hit, looks like $hit" enough times? Well, must be $hit!)

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"All the evidence that was given to him and the American people showed Saddam and Iraq as a threat. Do you want Bush to wait until another major city gets hit before doing anything? Is that what you want to wait for?"

I do, especially from someone that NEVER saw combat himself. Before you send other folks' kids off to die? YOU BET I SAY HE OUGHT TO WAIT!

Especially if the doctor (CIA) has misdiagnosed a problem!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"Bush followed protocol for going to war, and Congress gave him that."

He acted on information that (from what I have seen of it on the news) said "POSSIBLE" not "PROBABLE"

Big diff. between those 2 words first of all... & secondly, why attack someone that did not do the 9/11 attacks, but someone else instead (that put a hit out on your Daddy Big George)?

Come on!

Originally posted by Brian Frank:

"Even Clinton is saying going into Iraq was the right thing to do, although he does disagree on the specifics."

Clinton stated "I was aware of activities going on over there" but you didn't see him do anything did you? Did IRAQ hassle us when he had the reins?? NO!

Country ran GREAT under Bill Clinton, no questions asked: We had good jobs, nation was getting ahead, & had cash surplus and good standing worldwide (better than now, most certainly on ALL accounts I note). George W. Bush has burned up all that Bill Clinton accomplished & to top it off?

BUSH has RUINED THINGS: Trillion Dollar debt, no more good jobs (ESPECIALLY IN OUR FIELD OF COMPUTERS), & companies closing & folks losing jobs too!

These are NOT speculations either - they ARE facts, with visible results we can all see.

He couldn't run a business, & now he's trying to make command decisions for a nation? Well, you see the results... AND YES, again, I expect those @ the top to DO THEIR JOB, oversee your underlings & make it right... not F'd up! You can't do that right? To quote Morton Downey: "YOU'RE OUTTA HERE!"

You DO NOT go off on 'hearsay' & possible... you act on "PROBABLE" & for sure results especially w/ young folks lives on the line.

Again - If someone said to me "Brian Frank is out to shoot you" I would first consider the source, & demand "PROBABLE" before I even remotely thought about acting on "POSSIBLE", especially again with folks lives on the line!

Now, let's say you DID take a shot @ me (like Osama Bin Laden did to our nation), you'd be who I would nail, & not your father, for instance, or your best pal (Saddam was not even REMOTELY that close to AlQueda & BinLaden either).

APK

P.S.=> Enough on the war though, they are trying to find "fallguys" to take the rap now, anyone with any sense can see that... how about the economy? No defending George W.'s record there... the results are plain to see, & YES: When you are @ the top it is YOUR JOB to make sure those under you do your job right... that is mgt. 101! apk

Brian, You may as well give it up. I've been arguing with another group of idiots in another forum. The democrats are after blood and they will use anything, truth or not, to slander our President. Mr. Moore's crapumentary was filled with half truths and flat out lies about Mr. Bush. Everything that man claimes can be proven wrong if checked on. The democrats are not going to do that because they want to believe all of the garbage.

And as far as the CIA goes. Our President has no choice but to rely on what he is told by our intelligence community. It would be suicide to not act on a warning from the CIA and FBI that states this country is in danger. And Mr. Bush didn't just go right to war with the first warning either. He met with leaders from other countries, two of which are obvious, Mr. Putin and Mr. Blair, and they confirmed that their own intelligence showed that Saddam has plans to attack the united states via terror networks.

Now it is just plain ignorant to excuse the fact that Saddam is a danger to the free world and peace loving people. He has proven that time and time again. He was financing terror attacks on Israel. So since he hates America too, don't you think it wise to believe he would finance attacks elsewhere. It is just common sense people.

Now why don't you lay your political party aside and use the god given gift you are supposed to have called a brain. Now, I am sorry to be so blunt, but I am fed up with it.

Originally posted by PTS:

"Brian, You may as well give it up. I've been arguing with another group of idiots in another forum. The democrats are after blood and they will use anything, truth or not, to slander our President."

Oh, you mean "our president" that did not win by our actual popular vote? That does not make him our president, especially when it boiled down to a state where 50,000 (or was it 5000, you correct me here guys thanks: Doesn't matter though, it's manipulation like how the governor of that state is his relative: that does NOT shed positives on it, more like nepotism) votes got cancelled by the governor of that state, the now president's relative, & is now president because of it?

Gee that does not look "fishy" to me @ all! Another 1/2 truth, right? Nepotism REEKS here I say!

NOW, You seem to think it's OK to start a fight or a war? HEY: YOU Ever been in one, or are you like AWOL George W. Bush?? Well, let me tell you what: I have been in ALOT, & know what?

NO one ever wins a fight! Both sides end up hurt SOMEHOW (whether physically, or financially or legally). Ever get your teeth knocked out, or nose broken? Even if you "WIN", you end up losing fixing those or walking around looking like hell permanently... you lose EITHER way! Our country is getting its teeth knocked out by the TRILLION dollar debt & its nose broken by economic failure under BUSH & HEARTS BROKEN BY THE DEATH OF THEIR HUSBANDS, SONS, & BROTHERS!

You got a brother over there? I do... I don't want him dead either. I bet you don't have anyone over there, because if you did? You wouldn't defend a war that had NO cause, no proof yielded (not speculation/misnterpretation/etc. excuses & fallguys)! Are you like the owner of Raytheon, Haliburton, or Lockheed-Martin or something, or just a congressman/senator/member of the house of reps?

BUT it SURE IS EASY to start a war/fight though, especially when you & yours (Rich & politicians like ours with no one actually fighting it from their own members in House/Senate, or their family in the service either) are NOT involved fighting it but instead sitting on the sidelines profiting by it while those fighting it die & their families permanently grieving too forever!

Originally posted by PTS:

"Mr. Moore's crapumentary was filled with half truths and flat out lies about Mr. Bush. Everything that man claimes can be proven wrong if checked on."

Sure, you mean like how Mr. Bush checked on the CIA's data presented to him (more like interpreted it as he saw fit to have his crew like Cheney profit by it)?

Originally posted by PTS:

"The democrats are not going to do that because they want to believe all of the garbage."

The only garbage folks see out there is the mess he made of the economy & a war that has sent us into TRILLION dollar debt & gets our brothers & sons killed for now still? Our economy seeing businesses closing, jobs being taken from our nation thru outsourcing too??

Yea, top it all off with HALIBURTON scamming & Bush's boys in Cheney & crew profiting while WE PAY FOR IT? Yea, ok... Yup... garbage alright!

Garbage you CANNOT put some b.s. "spin" on, or setup the CIA as fallguys for! Hard facts you seem to be avoiding, especially the state of the economy the last 4 years... NO excuse for that, it's his JOB to defend our nations freedom by giving us the chance to excel thru good jobs & money (which in essense IS your freedom).

Argue with those TRILLION sized numbers, lives being lost, economy in SHAMBLES... USE TANGIBLES, OK? Don't spout meaningless political slogans, use facts: I did right up there!

Originally posted by PTS:

"And as far as the CIA goes. Our President has no choice but to rely on what he is told by our intelligence community."

Sure, & you can say 4/5 dentists chew Trident gum too... if you coerce them to say so!

It's up to YOU to interpret the data, & demand UNDENIABLE FACTS, before you send our brothers & sons off to die for "CIA Half-Truths" (Bush half-truths using the CIA as fallguys! What is next? The devil made him do it?? Why attack Hussein, when it was BinLaden that hit our buildings???)

Originally posted by PTS:

"It would be suicide to not act on a warning from the CIA and FBI that states this country is in danger."

Again as I said above: Did you actually read those notices? I saw excerpts on the T.V., they were only SUSPECTED danger, not 110% sure danger. Clinton had same warnings, but you don't see him go off half-cocked & start a TRILLION DOLLAR DEBT/United States soldier killing war though... he didn't HAVE to: Country was doing great under him for 8 years!

Originally posted by PTS:

"And Mr. Bush didn't just go right to war with the first warning either. He met with leaders from other countries, two of which are obvious, Mr. Putin and Mr. Blair, and they confirmed that their own intelligence showed that Saddam has plans to attack the united states via terror networks."

Sure, ok... Correct me IF I am wrong here - Isn't the Bush family is related to England's royalty? No?? Then I am wrong, I have heard this... but if I am NOT?

Well, again: Another Bush FAMILY plan deal! So, scratch England, OK?

Now, above all: If those guys from other nations were so sure about it? Let THEM fight it... better yet, let the BUSH family go over there with Congress & get killed, instead of folks brothers, sons, & husbands.

BOY, you sure think it's ok to let others get hurt, but not yours of course, right? Somehow, I doubt you've ever fought your own battles if you think war is good & righteous!

Originally posted by PTS:

"Now it is just plain ignorant to excuse the fact that Saddam is a danger to the free world and peace loving people."

Sure, sure... must be that Saddam piloted those jets into our buildings & gave the order to do it, right? Hmmmm... I seem to remember it being a guy named Osama Bin Laden!

Originally posted by PTS:

"He has proven that time and time again. He was financing terror attacks on Israel."

Did he actually DO anything to the United States? If so, prove it to me! If you can do that? I will take back asking "Why did we attack Hussein when BinLaden hit us!", ok??

Originally posted by PTS:

"So since he hates America too, don't you think it wise to believe he would finance attacks elsewhere. It is just common sense people."

What is common sense is, you hit who hit you... not his acqaintances! Hussein put a HIT out on George Sr., this is a fact, & I can speculate too - That is part of why George Jr. here started up this war, & also to line his pal Cheney's pockets more with Haliburton cash!

Originally posted by PTS:

"Now why don't you lay your political party aside and use the god given gift you are supposed to have called a brain. Now, I am sorry to be so blunt, but I am fed up with it."

I shot down everything you said with facts - here is more: What has Bush's economic plan resulted in here in the states? Good stuff - Yea, I guess so, if you call businesses failing, gas outta control in prices, GOOD jobs disappearing from our shores GOOD stuff, lol, yea... sure, right!

Use your brain & don't try to argue with me man, I'll just waste you with facts!

He's expected to defend THIS nation, not others "freedom" (especially by bombing them & killing them while he does & costing us a TRILLION $ now doing it... that's taking our freedom & our young mens lives as soldiers!)

Get real! He did not put up a good showing in his term (which should NOT be his according to the majority actual votes), if he cannot do that? Fire him... that is what happens to folks that don't do their jobs... & to those that do their jobs get fired now too... ALL due to Mr. Bush's FINE ECONOMIC PLAN which downsizing & outsourcing definitely contributes to the good of U.S. citizenry with?

That's half-truths right? LOL, they're trying to say the economy is "picking up", heck... it does EVERY spring/summer due to construction workers getting jobs again - but, ever see the jobs out there now? Hand-to-mouth/Check-to-PUNY check jobs: Rent & food is more like it! In a service oriented economy?? That does NOT work... no one can purchase more than rent & food without extra disposable income pal!

A leader is expected to manage his subordinates, & demand facts & not go off "half-cocked" & screw the country up financially & get our boys killed.

When you pay someone to do a job? You expect it to be done RIGHT, if not? They are terminated... folks do NOT want excuses or fallguys, the leaders make the decisions NOT the CIA fallguys. What the CIA put out? Speculation & it said so, but not 110% solid undeniable proof... Clinton had the same reports, & did not act on b.s. that wasn't solid! He built our country UP from the debt that Reagan caused, only to have it blown by Mr. Bush totally & TONS more debt (trillions) put upon us.

Folks want results, NOT excuses & fallguys. If a leader cannot manage it? He's gone... but, should at least accept responsibility for his "Bad" decisions, that were subject to his OWN interpretations (if not 'hidden agendas').

APK

P.S.=> Bottom line & I will use visible, undeniable facts: Young men dying, Cheney making money & ripping us on thru Haliburton, Trillion dollar debt for a no "WMD" found war (another CIA fault, Clinton never acted on it & got this nation outta Reaganomics debt which BUSH burnt up & did worse on than Reagan still), GOOD jobs leaving this nation, folks losing homes & dreams...

Evidently, you've never been in a fight either - try it sometime warmonger... I cannot wait to see you change your tune when you are missing teeth! I would bet you've never been in one yourself, & why you think it's OK for others to fight for you & die or be permanently hurt along with their families, right?

Argue with those mostly, & not your "I'm sick of it" b.s. slogans... like they say in, iirc, Missouri? "SHOW ME"... we don't want excuses, we want GOOD results because BUSH is NOT providing them & trying to blame others! Good mgt. does not do that, they FIX what is messed up! He has not in 4 years now, & you expect folks to re-elect him? Wake up... apk


[Edited by Alec§taar on 2004-07-13 05:57:58]

Originally posted by PTS:

"The democrats are after blood and they will use anything, truth or not, to slander our President. Mr. Moore's crapumentary was filled with half truths and flat out lies about Mr. Bush. Everything that man claimes can be proven wrong if checked on. The democrats are not going to do that because they want to believe all of the garbage."

First, I am a registered Republican. Second, I am sure our "President" didn't legitimately win the election. Third, you state that everything can be disproven if checked on, but according to what sources? Can you, without ANY doubts, completely trust the propaganda that the government has inundated the american public with? I can't.

Finally, I'll do my best to ensure that Mr. Bush doesn't get elected this term. Note that I didn't say re-elected.

And I do realize that arguing about politics on forums is about as useless as anything else, but maybe, just maybe, I can get someone to open their eyes to all the BS.

Originally posted by adamvjackson:

"Originally posted by PTS:

"The democrats are after blood and they will use anything, truth or not, to slander our President. Mr. Moore's crapumentary was filled with half truths and flat out lies about Mr. Bush. Everything that man claimes can be proven wrong if checked on. The democrats are not going to do that because they want to believe all of the garbage."

First, I am a registered Republican. Second, I am sure our "President" didn't legitimately win the election. Third, you state that everything can be disproven if checked on, but according to what sources? Can you, without ANY doubts, completely trust the propaganda that the government has inundated the american public with? I can't.

Finally, I'll do my best to ensure that Mr. Bush doesn't get elected this term. Note that I didn't say re-elected.

And I do realize that arguing about politics on forums is about as useless as anything else, but maybe, just maybe, I can get someone to open their eyes to all the BS."

Exactly my point to a tee AdamVJackson... I am not "out to get the republican party" (even though they typically have driven up the national debt HUGELY per Reagan, which Clinton actually fixed & made us have a surplus mind you, & then BUSH is doing even worse than Reagan did now). I just see what I see from them based on historical data from over 20++ years now running... & use those facts.

(& I agree, per what a history professor told me on my 1st degree from LeMoyne College (jesuit taught largely, & college I attended): QUESTION EVERYTHING & examine the source thoroughly, because there is usually SOME 'hidden agenda' involved during legislation & it involved YOUR dollars & YOUR life!)

Heh, I like that & you're right about BUSH absolutely NOT winning this election & yet he has the presidency... & you freely admit being a registered Republican & admit you are not liking that voting fiasco & also what BUSH's results have been economically period...

Outsourcing, in particular being rampantly practiced under this Administration, should concern ANY of us "geeks/nerds/techtypes" especially because it's killing us & not having any GOOD job pay? Means in essence, no freedom (no women, because you're "broke-as-a-joke", either & not being able to get things above & beyond your rent + food... no "fun" money for the services out there in a primarily service oriented economy & this knocks the HECK out of it in fact & why you are seeing businesses fail more & more + driving prices up on things).

They're not even trying to make an attempt to block or discourage outsourcing... & that affects a HUGE block of our economy, especially guys like us: Computer folks & service tech jobs!

I agree, that arguing politics or religion is tough (it's funny, because last night I was @ the airport picking up my Mom to take her to her home & discussed (not argued) both with a Republican oriented minister who was waiting for his relatives... I admitted to him I do agree with alot of the morality issues BUSH espouses, old & traditional values especially because they're proven over CENTURIES as working good things. BUT, we don't need a priest/preacher in the WhiteHouse as much as we need a SMART business oriented thinker... & for a guy that preaches about values, sending guys over to be killed and yet having no proof on his initial assertions that IRAQ is a threat or has WMD's is NOT good @ all, & you would think that since BUSH opposes 3rd party abortions, he would oppose sending our brothers, husbands, & sons over to be killed like they have been steadily the last year now).



* Above all, I agree with you on 1 point: Still, if you can reach just ONE person... you know?



APK

P.S.=> I just hope what I present as facts are straight & that you guys look into them... lol, I absolutely HATE being inaccurate, but I would say I am not by any means, unless you guys can prove diff. that is... & I do NOT like putting down our government or its members, they DO represent us after all! BUT, when I see things being done WRONG for hidden agendas & profit by the misery of others that you & I pay for? Yea, I will yell about it to others from the rooftops... apk

Here's the issue I take with Micheal Moore's film

Asking him to do a "documentary" on Bush is like asking the Aryan nation to do a special on Black History month.

We have lost the ability to think objectively.

Kerry and Edwards saw he same intiligence and voted for war.

So if Kerry would have been president he would have been against it?

So we get a choice this November

2 oil cronies

or a Billionare, and a Millionare Trial lawyer.

Somehow I don't think the average person will be served well by either.

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"Here's the issue I take with Micheal Moore's film

Asking him to do a "documentary" on Bush is like asking the Aryan nation to do a special on Black History month. "

Why? Moore stated on T.V. recently he is an "independent" in fact, & not a democrat (OR, republican)!

To me @ least? Parties are b.s. & NOT the reason I vote - No "brand loyalty" is usually present from me, not in hardware for a computer or car for example, OR for whom I vote for!

I vote for guys that have courage to state their views & have realistic (what I feel are @ least) approaches to fixing problems out there in the economy etc. here.

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"We have lost the ability to think objectively."

I don't think I have, I took it ALL in & looked over both sides pretty well... & have had NUMEROUS discussions here online as well as "outside the matrix" in the real-world as well as I mention last posting about my discussion with a pastor who was "pro-BUSH" in fact about this & drank in his views for digestion here... his views did not convince me that the economy is good, or that this war is right!

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"Kerry and Edwards saw he same intiligence and voted for war."

Do you also know, that the House/Senate was polled & a good what? 80% of them would change their vote if they knew NOW what they did not know then??

That's right man... to me? That SCREAMS misinterpretation of CIA reports BIGTIME, to bend ther results of voting in the House/Senate (Congress) to whatever ends you wish to achieve!

That's up there with "SELECTIVE QUOTES" from folks, or worse man... I saw those CIA reports excerpts on T.V. recently now that parts of them are being released to the public: NOT ONCE DID I SEE 110% SURE & 'GO FOR IT' INFORMATION ON THEM... not a once!

Just speculations...

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"So if Kerry would have been president he would have been against it?"

We can only speculate on that... but, what I DO know is, I only hope John Kerry & Edwards do as their constituency (us) wish, instead of lining their OWN pockets thru HALIBURTON type deals as Cheney & BUSH have going on now!

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"So we get a choice this November

2 oil cronies

or a Billionare, and a Millionare Trial lawyer.

Somehow I don't think the average person will be served well by either.

"

We have to wait on that, I just hope they fix the economy & get our boys outta there in IRAQ & keep us outta wars, period!

APK

Originally posted by sapiens74:

"We have lost the ability to think objectively."

I totally agree, that as a majority of US citizens, we have lost the ability to think objectively.

This has ripple effects that are never-ending, for example, Congress is pretty much a bunch of sheep catering to big businesses only, not caring in the least for the communities that they are supposed to be representing. They are no longer for the people, as you (and I) were taught. America is becoming less and less of a democracy. Our rights are being lost daily, and those who appose are being silenced by either lawsuits or legal threats (think RIAA/MPAA, etc.). What happened to the Constitution? What happened to the Bill of Rights?

It seems that politicians need a reminder. Their job is to serve us, it's not our job to serve them.